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For fans of the famed Swedish metal quintet Meshuggah, the big question is. . . What the hell have they been doing lately? Known for their off-beat rhythmical attack and Fredrik Thordendal's melodic and unorthodox approach to guitar leads, Meshuggah have not released a new studio record since 1998's 'Chaosphere'. Meshuggah, however, have not been totally out of action. They plan to release a new album of unreleased goodies in August called 'Rare Trax' and they made a live appearance this year in the US as headliners of the New England Metal and Hardcore Festival. In order to find out what's going on with these crazy Swedes, the Metal Update cornered guitarist Marten Hagstrom and drilled him about songwriting, musical influences and the high price of laziness.

METAL UPDATE: Your band's name is Meshuggah. Is that Yiddish for "crazy"? Where did you guys come across that?

MARTEN HAGSTROM: I think, I'm ninety-nine percent sure, that it was Jens, our vocalist. He came across it in a dictionary for American slang, or something like that. Apparently, the word is "meshugeneh" in Yiddish, and it got Americanized when the Jewish communities in America started to use it frequently. But we have no connection at all with any Jewish community or anything like that. It was just something that we felt, or he felt, was really cool. It had a good ring to it because of our music being kind of warped. So, it just stuck with us.

MU: You know, it's been three years since your last studio record. What's the scoop on that? When are you guys due out with another record? Do you have any ideas on what it might be like?

MH: Yeah, well, first of all, we're gonna release the 'Rare Trax' album. It's gonna be all rare tracks, actually. It's demo stuff from unreleased stuff from way, way back, like '89-'90 up until like, last year. It's different stuff that we had laying around that our record boss in Germany knew about and wanted us to release. He's been on our backs for years about it. So, that's the next release we have but, as far as a regular full-length CD, I would guess that the beginning of next year or, at the earliest, late 2001. So, what's happening is that, we're gonna work on the new album now. We're gonna work on the material and get them together as quick as we can because we got some stuff lying around, some new stuff. The only thing I can tell you about the album, as far as how's it gonna sound, it's gonna sound, I think it's gonna be darker and more mean. It's not gonna be. . . the case during the last one was like a punch in the face, you know? I think this one is gonna be intense as well, but not to that extent. More dynamics and more atmosphere, I would guess.


MU: You are well-known for your polyrhythmic and kinda quirky, off-kilter rhythmic style. Is that still going to be present on the new record?

MH: Yes, yes, that will always be present with Meshuggah, 'cause otherwise we just go and call it whatever. 'Cause that's been kinda the engine of the band. It's not a conscious thing. It's not that we sit down and think that "Oh, this is not Meshuggah," or it has to be a certain way. If you listen to some of our songs, they're not at all that polyrhythmic or not at all that complex. Some songs are, but not every song, you know? We do- like every other band - we try to write to please ourselves first, and I guess that we don't want to hear that much straightforward metal as much as we want to have something challenging to listen to. It's okay that somebody might think that it's. . . Some people accuse us of being too accomplished, or stuff like that. It's okay. It's fine if they think that, but we won't slow down and we won't make it simple just because it's required in a commercial point-of-view. I mean, we're still what we are.

MU: So, when you guys write, because you've got the shifting time meters going on, it would seem you guys would have to at some point sit down and plot "4/4, 3/8, 2/4, 5/16," whatever. Do you actually sit there and figure that kind of thing out, or do you just jam and naturally feel out the time changes?

MH: We know what we're playing and, basically, to be totally honest, ninety-five percent of the Meshuggah stuff - at least on 'Destroy, Erase, Improve' and 'Chaosphere' - ninety-five percent of the stuff is 4/4, and I know that sounds weird, because it's often perceived to the listener as whatever time signature, and sometimes it is. It might be a 7/4, or whatever, but most of the time it's straight 4/4. What makes it not sound like 4/4 is where we punctuate, and where we start and stop the pattern, so to speak. Another thing is what the drums are doing, where is the snare, because if you're expecting snare to always be on, like, 1, 2, 3, 4. . . No. You're going to be thrown off by what Tomas is doing. So, we don't have to think consciously that much about what time signature to use, because everything is based on 4/4, but we know what time signature we're in. We know what we're doing. Nothing is left to chance, you know, 'cause when we write, we seldom write when we rehearse. We stay at home, find a computer using Q-base and stuff. . . When I have, like, half a song or a whole song or some just parts of some of the songs, then I just wait for other guys to send it to me over the internet, and they're gonna go like, "Ah, this was totally killer and this part, I don't know" and, you know, it all comes together, eventually. That's why it takes so much time for us to make an album. We're not a jamming type of band. We're not a band who goes down to rehearse and have a couple of beers and jam. We haven't done that for years.

MU: So, when you guys write, then, you guys all come up with independent ideas and send each other tapes. When you come together, is it a pretty focused effort? Once you guys get into the rehearsal room, do you guys get focused on writing songs? Is it pretty much all there and you kind of hammer out the details when you get there?

MH: Exactly, 'cause let's say, for instance, I have a song. . . I know that Fredrik has three-and-a-half songs. Jens has one. I have four. Tomas has one. We basically say, "Well, hey, now we got this much stuff, let's get together and go through to sort out what we actually have." When it crosses us down, we know what's shit and has to go, and what we can work on. Then we rehearse and, as you said, hammer all the details. Sometimes, you're doing stuff, but you don't feel it, the energy, or you don't feel that there's anything special about that part when you rehearse it. You can't make it sound any good, well, then you have to re-evaluate the whole situation. So, it can be a lengthy process even though the songs are almost done when you start to rehearse 'cause you get a new perspective. When we wrote 'Chaosphere', we had one song finished when Nuclear told us, "You guys, you gotta go into the studio in like, three months, or else the schedule is gonna blow. You guys, it's been awhile, man." And we're like, "shit." So, we have one song and a couple of riffs and three months to go until studio. So, we're just, like, brainstorming for three months, and by the time we went into the studio, Tomas, our drummer, hadn't even heard two of the songs. So, I guess, the name says it all - 'Chaosphere' - the title says it all about the way it was made and written and recorded. Sometimes, the words, they get done in time and sometimes you don't. . . so, it depends.

MU: I've read on the internet that you guys were not happy with the end result of 'Chaosphere' - that you felt rushed on that. Is that true? Did you feel too pressured?

MH: I can tell you one thing, when 'Destroy, Erase, Improve' was released in '95, a lot of people told us that they viewed it to be a really great piece of work - as far as the way we built our songs and production-wise, and stuff like that. I'm proud of it, but I can't say that I'm really happy with that one either, 'cause there's a lot of things we would like to change. With 'Chaosphere', it was pretty much the other way around. On 'Destroy', we had a lotta old songs that we rehearsed for years, and knew that this is gonna come out this way. When we went into the studio for 'Chaosphere', we had no idea about how it was eventually gonna come out since, I mean, Tomas hadn't heard two songs, and we put two of the songs pretty much together in the studio. One of the songs I finished the day before we left for the studio. I put the finishing touches to it at home. We hadn't rehearsed all the songs. We were pressed for time. We hadn't had the time to feel how the fuck is this sounding, actually, you know? So, what we decided to do was to go for the throat, you know, keep the real aggressive stuff, just go for the throat, just deliver a blow to the face. That was the ultimate goal, and I think that we pretty much achieved it, too, 'cause it's an intense album. That's what we wanted, 'cause we knew we didn't have time to explore the other parts of our songwriting. I'm hoping that that is what's gonna happen in the next album. I know we have some more time, so we can, you know, get some dynamics in there, work with more stuff that we wanna do that we never got the time to do last time around. So, 'Chaosphere' was definitely a messy album, but the individual sounds and the songs are pretty good. We were happy with that, but we just wanted to work different.


MU: So, then, when you look at your back catalogue before the new record comes out, what are you most satisfied with? What's your favorite? What do you think best represents what the band is capable of doing up to this point?

MH: That's a tough one 'cause, in some respects, 'Chaosphere'. It's the most recent album and it's pointing out where we're going, in a way. I mean, if you compare 'None' or 'Contradictions Collapse', in many ways, it's not relevant at all. That was kind of post-Trauma, Metallica, Bay Area, you know? It's, like, a really weird album. That was like a band not yet finding its own style, you know? But with 'None', the '94 mini-CD, I guess we really found the path we wanted to walk, musically. On 'Destroy', we fulfilled what we were about back in '95. With 'Destroy', I think it's the best we could have done at the time, and 'Chaosphere' is like the finger pointing out where we wanna go next. So, I have no easy answer to your question because the highlights of 'Destroy, Erase, Improve' are certainly the ones we feel that are the best we've ever done, but, altogether, 'Chaosphere' is a more together album. It is more focused in the respect that we really knew where we wanted that album to go. With 'Destroy', we just recorded something, you know, so, it's hard to answer. I'm proud of both 'Chaosphere' and 'Destroy' because I think that we managed to make the most out of the situation. I can't ask for anything more than that. As long as I can feel that we maintain some identity, some trueness, to ourselves, that's all I ask.

MU: Since it's been three or four years since the last studio record, what's the main reason for the delay? Is it touring?

MH: It's not touring, even though we have toured. Every band tours, so that's. . . Well, first of all, we never write on the road, so every gig we play live takes away from the performance back home, you know? And, two, we're pretty lazy. And, three, we're really picky, so sometimes I write, like, three songs and throw them all away. But we're really lazy, too. We are like, you know, "Yeah, I got a bunch of songs, but I don't have to play it for the other guys right now. . ." But I think that's all a part of our identity, 'cause we don't let things through that easy, you know? We don't go, well, "Hey, we made a song. I guess it's pretty cool. Let's use it." That's never gonna happen. It's like, if we don't feel that this song can stand on its own legs, that it is a song that we really feel is put together the way we wanna present it to people, we won't, you know? So, that's why it always takes a long time. And we have never had as much stuff going on around Meshuggah before. We're finding ourselves with a lotta new associates. We're trying to start off our own studio. We're changing places where we rehearse. We have a lotta good ideas and we're trying to realize that will take some workin' on, and that's why the gap between 'Chaosphere' and this album. When it came to the gap between 'Destroy' and 'Chaosphere', it was pure laziness. Pure laziness.

MU: So, how often does your record label, Nuclear Blast, get frustrated with your band?

MH: Daily. On a daily basis, 'cause obviously they want us to put out a record like, every ten months, or something like that. That's their perfect scenario, but I think somewhere in between would be the best, you know? Release an album, tour for a year and then have a year off writing the new album. I don't really see the charm in, like, putting out an album every year. Bands that I like, when they start to put out albums that frequently, it's always a sign that someone's on their back trying to get them into a schedule that doesn't really fit them. I think the average band works best when it has a two year - every other year - basis on their record releases, 'cause it's no big stressing out on everybody.

MU: Do you get any responses from fans who are frustrated with the gap between records? Do you guys ever feel like you might be losing your base a little bit?

MH: Yeah, well, we might lose some, but we have a surprisingly stubborn and true fan base. A lotta people that's been with us since, like, '93 still buy our albums, still mail us. There's been a lot of talk in interviews and radio and stuff about the gap between our albums. It always comes up in interviews and quite understandably, too. But, it has come to the point where we actually get a lot of mail from fans telling us that "We know that it's been a while since you released your last album. Please don't rush it, no matter what anybody says. Take your time. We want it to be a good album." So, that's pretty liberating to know that there's people out there, die-hard fans, that take the time to mail us. The mails that are complaining about our slow pace are by far fewer than the ones who are asking us to take our time, so that's a big surprise. I'm happy about it.

MU: Do you guys feel you appeal to the musician crowd? Do you have people saying to you, "Yeah, I play guitar, I play drums and I really like this and this?" Do you get a lot of that?


MH: Yeah, we do. We do. We get a lotta, you know, "I'm a drummer in a band. I played guitars for ten years. I was wondering, how'd you do that? I was thinking about this in that song. . . how do you play it? What did you use in the studio to get that sound?" You know, really concerned and really analytic fans that we have that are musicians themselves. But I would like to point out that we get a lot of pure metalheads, too, and that is something that I'm really, really happy about. If you start to look at it, if a kid comes up and tells me "I really love your shit" and if I can see that he means it, you know, he really likes our stuff, I don't care if he's an opera singer or he's the best drummer on earth. It doesn't really matter. It's just as much worth it to us to evoke those feelings in just anyone, you know? We want people to like us. We want to put out records and to have people listen to it saying, "Hell, yeah, this is a really good record." That's it. But, of course, with the type of music we're playing, we attract a crowd that tends to be more of a musician's crowd, but not like on a fifty-fifty basis 'cause it's still basically a metal crowd.

MU: Do you guys have any formal music education or background?

MH: No. We all started playing our respective instruments when we were kids. Not like three years old, but like ten years old or something like that. So, I guess, we were all from way up north in Sweden, small cities, not much to do, sort of places like this. Like, where me and Tom the drummer's from, it was like play hockey, get drunk, or do something else. That something else became music. So, I think it's pretty much a situation where we actually have been forced to become well-accustomed to our instruments, to put it diplomatically. So, it's like no one has ever been interested in going to music schools 'cause, to be totally honest, I feel that that actually is a drawback, you know? They are telling you that you have to have fixed routines and you gotta read music this way. "When you write music, think about this." I say, "Fuck it, don't think about it, feel." If you feel that this is good shit, I don't care what a teacher would tell me - that I shouldn't, blah, blah, blah. . . Well, that is not from the heart. That is from the head. If music comes from the head, it sucks. It's always been like that. It's always going to be like that.

MU: For me, personally, as long as you're doing stuff the way you want to play it, it's cool, but I think there's an advantage to education in music. It's going to open up people to ideas and things. I think a little bit of discipline actually can advance creativity because it forces you to think in a context you might not have thought of without some sort of education or teaching. Would you agree?

MH: Yeah, I agree, totally, in the respect that I don't think it's an issue of teaching. I think it's an issue of pointing out certain facts about the whole of the music, rather than just a genre. Sometimes it's very important to take someone and say, "Hey, I know you only listen to metal, but have you heard this? Is this really something you should think about?" But, as I said, I don't think that's about going to music school as much as it is having influential people pointing out to you what really matters in a composition or whatever. We've been fortunate in our bands 'cause we have, I have, a lotta people in my environment that are really musical people - not necessarily "trained" musical, but schooled in music. I have the opportunity to have the possibilities pointed out to me - what, perhaps, I'm lacking. In that respect, you're totally right, but I also know about the people who are extremely skilled musicians, as a craftsman, as an engineer. I know a lotta guys who can play drums, but you wouldn't believe when it comes to music. . . They can play as fast and as slow and as correct as you want 'em to, but they have a real hard time playing something that makes me feel that, "Oh, I'm listening to him." It's like I'm listening to a really good drummer who has no signature. It's like, we just heard what? Cypress Hill? Know that B-Real guy? He goes (Martin makes a weird noise). Okay, that guy, he has a signature, but he's rapping. He should have that. Everybody's, like, rapping with shit like that as a real good way of bringing out their personality. When it comes to a guitarist or a drummer, people rarely work on that part of the music. They work on being technically skilled, not being a personality when they're playing, know what I mean? Sometimes, I feel that people, when they go to music school, they focus so much on thinking about what they wrote instead of listening to their heart and their musical roots. What's true is that if you don't know how to play your instrument, you might not be able to get the idea you have out from your head or your heart when you feel something. You might not be able to actually perform. So, I think a little bit of both would be the most helpful way to go.

MU: So, let's say a fourteen-year-old kid who's never played guitar before in his life likes your band. He comes up to you and says, "Man, I wanna learn to play guitar. What do I do?" What advice would you give him for starting on the instrument?

MH: My advice is, if he likes our band, I would say to listen a lot to those you like and try to figure out why you like 'em. That's something people never think about. Why do I like this band? What's so fucking great about this guitarist or drummer or the band together? Try to practice that type of playing. If you're fourteen-years-old and you never held a guitar before or you just piddle around with it, you gotta get some start up. You gotta go to some school or buy books or, whatever, so, of course, you have to. You gotta get some help to get started. I'm not saying that they shouldn't practice or go to school. I'm saying that they should listen to themselves more than others and, of course, practice, practice, practice. Sit with your guitar or behind your drumkit and work and play the stuff you love. Do it until you're satisfied that you're doing it really well.

MU: Outside of band rehearsal, do you or anyone else in the band have a routine you go through on a daily or semi-daily basis at all? Do you go through exercises?

MH: Me and Fredrik, both guitarists, never practice. I did when I was younger, obviously. I spent many hours with the guitar, but I seldom sat around playing scales or stuff like that. I'm not really into the lead guitar stuff. I think it's overrated. My all-time favorite guitarist when I was really small was Alex Lifeson of Rush. I really admired the way he could say so much with his guitar without playing that much - just by the use of the guitar, rhythmically and the way he put his chords out. His leads were less impressive, you know? I'll always be like that and that's where I take my inspiration from. I know that Fredrik had been practicing a lot earlier, in the earlier days. But we all. . . Tomas never practices. Jens never practices. Of course, he doesn't stand around screaming I don't know what. Gustaf, perhaps he practices a bit, actually. But none of the rest of us. . . We've come to this stage where writing music is top priority, not getting skilled as an instrumentalist. If there is a part that we come up with that we can't pull off straightaway, we work at it.

MU: So, as far as your musical tastes go, are you guys pretty open-minded? Do you guys listen to different stuff?


MH: Oh, yeah. We're all very different, individually, and all very, very wide-spread as persons, too. I mean, I can listen to to Strapping Young Lad and Entombed or a black metal band and then go straight on to Dr. Dre. Then go straight on to Sting. Then go straight on to listen to Rush. Not that that would actually happen, but, you know, just to point out what I listen to. I don't care what type of music it is. If I hear something and it makes me feel something positive, in any way, it's good. I don't care if it's fucking Celine Dion, 'cause I'm not bothered by not being metal. I was when I was fifteen and stupid. But, as you were pointing out, it's really important to open your mind to what these guys are good at, 'cause they're good at something different than you are and that might help you in bringing new influences into the music. I'm not saying that if I were to listen to a hip-hop album, I might go rapping onstage. I don't want people to cross music over that way. I don't like rap in general, but some are really good at it. They are fucking driving their music forward on rhythm, on punctuality and feel for the flow, you know? When someone is rapping really good and you're laid back. . . So many metal vocalists should use that. They're screaming and really, really aggressive, but they're so fuckin' out of sync with their own band when it comes to rhythm. So, if they could, like, have Snoop Doggy Dog rap the lyrics in their head and they could follow with their screaming it would be awesome. But that's not their priority, 'cause they never listen to that type of music. That's the way I view it, and I think that I've learned a lot from listening to other genres than just metal.

MU: Well, I think that does come out in your music. You guys have a very strong rhythmic feel. The vocals are very percussive. I get kind of a Korn vibe. He (Jens) sounds like Jonathan Davis a little bit to me, and just because of the quirky kind of rhythm feel. Do you guys get that comparison at all?

MH: No, almost never, but I understand your point. I think that, if you look at certain bands, take Korn, for instance, they're so fuckin' influenced by the whole R&B / rap thing. We don't have that quality, but we have the way of building some things so that they sit up on the rhythmic stuff that we do. I mean, we often say, "I don't play guitar. I play percussive guitar." What I actually do is not as much playing, you know? What we do is, like. . . The drums are punctuating what the guitars are doing, and vice versa. We work together and still against each other, you know? So, that base is really rhythmical, as you were pointing out, and that's key to everything we do, that rhythm section.

MU: Fred gets credit for doing a lot of the lead stuff. Do you play leads as well?

MH: No, I do the clean parts and I do the rhythm stuff. I'm glad that I'm entitled to say that I do no leads at all. I never play leads. I'm allergic to it. I can play leads. I mean, I mess around sometimes, but if I'm gonna play lead, I wanna know that people are gonna go, "Shit, that's the fuckin' most incredible thing I ever heard." The day I can produce that, sure. . . But I think that Fred can have something really, really special as a metal guitarist 'cause. . . I mean, we've been playing, we've toured so fuckin' long and we rehearsed so many times in the past, and I still think it's a pleasure listening to him as a lead guitarist. I don't turn his leads off when we rehearse or when we're on tour. I really listen to him. Sometimes I go, "Now, tonight is really, really something special." I've seen so many metal bands where I don't think that the lead guitarists are doing that, you know? He might be really competent at guitar playing, but it's not lifting the music to another level. It's just, "Here comes the lead part." I never got the point. If you have something to say with your guitar, by all means, use it. If you don't, don't just put a lead in there to be traditional, you know? I really admire Fred as a lead guitar player. I think he's really got something special. Granted, he's influenced a lot by Allan Holdsworth, but, still, he's a damn good guitar player.

MU: Now, you talk about Allan Holdsworth, are you guys influenced by jazz at all? In the improvised elements of your music, is that an influence at all?

MH: No, I wouldn't say that jazz is our influence. Our basic influences are Metallica, Anthrax and stuff like that. I'm a lot influenced by Rush. I know I grew up listening to them. I think that, apart from Fredrik's lead guitar playing. . . And I don't consider Allan Holdsworth to be even jazz. It's something else. We have listened to a lot of fusion when we were much younger, but I know for a fact that no one does anymore. I love jazz. I think jazz is a great music style 'cause it has such a wide variety of artists and expressions, but I don't think that we're jazz, you know? We're not traditional jazz, and we're not avant-garde jazz, either 'cause we're not free-form. Avant-garde jazz is free-form. We're not. Well, we improvise a little bit. . . So, we're not, like, going at an avant-garde jazz thing and we're definitely not doing traditional jazz, but jazz has had an influence on us as any other music - apart from country music.

MU: Do you ever listen to older country?

MH: The banjo stuff, and stuff like that?

MU: Or like, you know, Merle Haggard. . .

MH: No, we don't listen to it actively, but I don't think it sucks, you know what I mean? Like, what is it called? 'Deliverance' the old movie, you know, where the banjo stuff is the soundtrack? Anyway, it's like, it's an art form in itself, and it's impressive. But, you know, Garth Brooks, Dolly Parton, it's. . . Unfortunately, we're gettin' that trend over in Sweden, too, by country artists playing. I don't think it's cool. It's like lame pop music. I never liked it since I was a little kid. Never liked it. So, I guess I'm biased.

MU: What other players, metal or otherwise, do you look at, as far as lead playing goes, do you think really add something to music and stand out stylistically?

MH: Apart from Allan Holdsworth being a great guitar player. . . I'm gonna think of, like, ten when I'm gone to the bar, but now no one comes to mind. Well, of course, I really think Eddie Van Halen is a really good guitar player. He did a lot for rock 'n' roll and hard rock guitar way back. Now he's cheesy and lame, but on the first, like, four or five albums he did a lot to evolve the way hard rock guitarists play their leads, you know? Tap-ons, hammer-ons and stuff like that. He was, as far as I know, the first one that I heard that really tuned his guitar down. And on "Unchained" way, way back . . . I really admire him. Oh, I don't know. I've never been that much into the guys like Steve Vai and Satriani, you know? But I think that Steve Vai was funny, you know? You know what? You know one guy that I really would like to hear play a lotta leads? That's James Hetfield.

MU: Really?

MH: Yeah, 'cause Kirk Hammett gets all this credit. I'm not really sure that he's a good guitarist. He never brought anything really, really special that made me go, "Wow!" James Hetfield is such a fucking great guitar player, rhythmically, so, he - shit, and a good singer - he's got good ear for tunes. He's a good lead guitarist, I bet you. I don't know it for a fact.

MU: Well, I think he's done some leads before.

MH: Yeah, I know, but they're pretty basic. I would like to go hear him go all out, but I think we have the same philosophy. . .

MU: You came to the States for the one-off New England Metal and Hardcore Festival gig. Will you be back any time soon?

MH: No, I don't think so. We would like to. We love being in your States. We loved the Slayer tour. We loved being at the Milwaukee Metalfest. I mean, it's no problem with wanting to go over, but we're from Sweden ande we are, as I said, a lazy band. We've been having some organizational problems back home. We're now starting to get shit together. We're talking with the German office about how we should work to get things to run smoother for us as a band and being able to deliver records on a more regular basis. A big part of that is to make a fucking badass, killer record during the late part of this summer and this fall, record it early winter and then get it out as soon as possible. Then hit the States next year hopefully. That is the most we can do time-wise. We really need the next album to show wherever the fuck. . . We can't do another 'Chaosphere'. It's a good album, but we can't rush it. We have to be in awe of ourselves. We want everybody at Nuclear Blast to feel that this is really something we believe in. We gotta believe it, they gotta believe it and we gotta do good work 'cause we don't wanna sell as much as we're doing now. We wanna set the new standard. We wanna get out to everyone who might even remotely like our stuff, and we're not doin' that unless we give 'em our best.







Interview: Anthony Syme [ ]
Photography: Cynthia Pelzner [ ]
Editor: Brant Wintersteen [ ]
Webmaster: WAR [ ]

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